Filling of Jerry cans

Post by **george** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:55 am

I mount my jerry cans in the load bin on top of the wheel arcs. Same side as my petrol filler cap. They idea is that the attended fill my tank and then fill the Jerry cans.
When I need to use the fuel I just use one of these â€œshakersâ€ type of siphon. It work very good for me and the Jerry cans is quite secure.
I know according to our law you are not allowed to fill up a container if it is on or in your vehicle. It is supposed to do with static electricity and when you put it on the ground you will earth it. In good old Africa I do not think anybody is aware of it.
But saying that I am obviously concerned about the safety. My thinking is that if I use a crocodile clip with cabel I can earth the Jerry cans. Will this help?
And if so can I use the negative of the battery to earth it or should I use the chassis.

Bushwacker · Post by **Bushwacker** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:32 am

I'm sure a chassis earth will work, if you think of it, how is your fuel tank earthed, you don't have to put it on the ground to fill, and your tyres can't earth the vehicle anyway?

Post by **Family_Dog** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:03 pm

Earth them to the metal work of your Hilux. Do not use a croc clip, rather try make it more permanent and use decent wire or braiding, not a chain, for earthing purposes. Good ventilation to remove any fume build-up quickly is essential.

-F_D

Post by **CasKru** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:44 pm

Please also keep in mind that you should use proper fuel hos when syphoning as a hosepipe and similar types of pipe can build up static with the transfer of fuel.

The best earth according to me would actually be if you could earth it to the petrol pump etc. because the potential difference would be between your vehicle and the garages forecourt. m2cw

Post by **Family_Dog** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:59 pm

The best earth according to me would actually be if you could earth it to the petrol pump etc. because the potential difference would be between your vehicle and the garages forecourt. m2cw

Most definitely! I was going to add words to the effect you will notice that the petrol attendant always grounds the pump handle against your car before he releases the flow of petrol, but with all my typos, I forgot. Presumably we are talking bout metal containers here and if they are earthed to your bakkie chassis, I would assume the PA would use their hose & nozzle to fill the containers, which are grounded.

The danger now comes when you drain fuel for your own use, you certainly don't want an explosion whilst doing this. As Cassie says, make sure you use the correct type of hose, you do not want to encourage an explosion by using the wrong petrol transfer method.

-F_D

Knersus · Post by **Knersus** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:16 am

Well personally I think this static thing is a myth :o . Maybe I am wrong but I have never heard of any static that have caused a metal jerry can or a plastic can to ignite

Think of it this way...a fuel pump is sometimes inside a fuel tank and it is connected to 12v...Surely this is more dangerous

and I have never heard of fuel tank that exploded as well.

Post by **george** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:34 am

I use one of these syphons you get at Outdoor wharehouse.It make sense that the fuel pump nozzel earth the car.
Here is a clips on youtube regarding this.It looks like the danger is the static that you yourself produce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tYO4jvn ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQYr507 ... re=related

Bushwacker · Post by **Bushwacker** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:46 am

Dis veiliger om 'n diesel te ry!!!

SuidWes · Post by **SuidWes** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:03 am

Hi George,

Rather take them down and fill them up on the ground as we had an incident just last year where a jerry that was refilled on the back of a bakkie cuaght fire.... Rather safe than sorry 8)

Post by **CasKru** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:31 am

Knersus wrote:Well personally I think this static thing is a myth :o . Maybe I am wrong but I have never heard of any static that have caused a metal jerry can or a plastic can to ignite

Think of it this way...a fuel pump is sometimes inside a fuel tank and it is connected to 12v...Surely this is more dangerous and I have never heard of fuel tank that exploded as well.

Definitely not a myth. I've seen the remains (what was left anyway) of a tanker where people tried to syphon petrol with a hosepipe. The reason why you might not have seen it is because the 10 odd liter you have syphoned wasn't enough to build up decent charge to produce a spark. For a spark to jump 1cm you need about 10 000volts.

Regarding the petrol pump in the tank. This unit is intrinsically safe (IS approved). This means that should any component fail etc. it will not produce a spark. I used to work in the fuel industry and we manufactured the control units which controlled / measured the loading and off loading of fuel tankers and also the control units that were used to fill the tankers at the gantry. I cannot start to tell you the amount of test and certifications etc you need to get to be able to have your unit rated as IS.

Another good idea is to touch any metal part of your vehicle before you get to any fuel tank / container to get yourself to the same potential and not cause a static discharge when opening the container.

Another interesting fact. It is better to have a spark on a full tank of fuel than on an empty tank. The more gas.... the more BOOM!!!!

Post by **george** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:30 am

Rather take them down and fill them up on the ground

Probably the way to go.
Just interesting that all the 4x4 shops and outdoor shops sell this plastic siphons and they all have a picture of a jerry can on the back and then you siphon in your tank.

Knersus · Post by **Knersus** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:56 pm

Cassie thanks for the info. The possibility is surely that it might happen.

but I still believe that this is highly unlikely when transfering fuel from the cans into the vehicle.

Post by **CasKru** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:00 pm

Not all plastic will cause a static build-up. Unfortunately I do not know which ones does and which ones don't but the safest would be to either use rubber hose or to earth the two vessels together before you start to fill. In the fuel gantries the pumps will not start until the equipment detects an earth. m2cw

Post by **CasKru** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:05 pm

Knersus wrote:Cassie thanks for the info. The possibility is surely that it might happen. but I still believe that this is highly unlikely when transfering fuel from the cans into the vehicle.

Chances are that it will never happen to you. I think it is even more likely if you live in dry air area and less so where humidity is higher.

Maverick131 · Post by **Maverick131** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:16 pm

1. Hi guys - came accros this post when searching for what brand of syphon to use and where to buy.

2. Please tell me if I have this correct:
- When filling the jerry can - best to put it on ground and then fill up.
- When siphoning fuel out of jerry can - first take it down and earth it on the ground before opening the can and start the siphoning process..?

Any feedback on point 1 please?

Post by **CasKru** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:21 pm

The best would be to let it make contact to an earthing point on the vehicle from/to which you are siphoning. You should also touch the vehicle earthing point before you start the transfer.

Ou vale1 · Post by **Ou vale1** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:38 pm

Earthing to the vehicle body will have no effect on static build-up, as the body is isolated from ground earth and acts like a huge capacitor, hence the nice shock you get when touching a metal part of your vehicle, especially in winter. In petroleum plants they have heavyduty jumpers fixed to a steel stucture and clamped to the vehicle before filling can start. The same should be done when tankers deliver to filling stations, but I noted that it does'nt always happen.

Post by **JohanM** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:45 pm

Maverick131 wrote:2. Please tell me if I have this correct:
- When filling the jerry can - best to put it on ground and then fill up.
- When siphoning fuel out of jerry can - first take it down and earth it on the ground before opening the can and start the siphoning process..?

Any feedback on point 1 please?

Jacus,

I have all my jerry cans filled on the ground before I load them. This gives me timeto ensure that the caps are sealing tightly and also the safety pin is securely in its position.

Also I have a metal spout that fits over the jerry can when I have refuel, and this grounds it in the filler neck. However before opening the can I ground it on the rear axle and on the ground before I open the cap. Also I try to open the Jerry can first and then fit the spout before opening the tank cap.

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:24 pm

Q? Does the same apply to diesel cans?

Post by **JohanM** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:40 pm

OOOOMS wrote:Q? Does the same apply to diesel cans?

Mark I will rather be safe than sorry about taking risks involved....

Post by **george** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:44 pm

You dont have to worry much about diesel.The vapors are not as flammable.
You can even weld a diesel tank with diesel in

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:48 pm

OOOOMS wrote:Q? Does the same apply to diesel cans?

nope. diesel does not ignite from a spark.

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:49 pm

Tx for the replies gents

Maverick131 · Post by **Maverick131** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:54 pm

JohanM wrote:Also I have a metal spout that fits over the jerry can when I have refuel, and this grounds it in the filler neck. However before opening the can I ground it on the rear axle and on the ground before I open the cap. Also I try to open the Jerry can first and then fit the spout before opening the tank cap.

Johan, will it have a static electricity effect when - after I've grounded the jerry on axle and ground, opened it and put on top of load bin - the fuel is being siphoned from jerry to bakkies's tank? Or is 20l not enough fuel to create spark...?

Hi-Hilux · Post by **Hi-Hilux** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:59 pm

Nee nou praat julle my bang, sal maak dat ek nie meer jerry kanne agter op my bak ry nie. Wil my kanne aan die binne kante van die rollbar mount, moet ek skuim rubber op die angle iron gebruik waarin die kanne gaan slide?

Post by **george** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:03 pm

Hi-Hilux wrote:Nee nou praat julle my bang, sal maak dat ek nie meer jerry kanne agter op my bak ry nie. Wil my kanne aan die binne kante van die rollbar mount, moet ek skuim rubber op die angle iron gebruik waarin die kanne gaan slide?

Die probleem kom eers in as jy oopmaak en in gooi.
'n Ander tip is om 'n parafien lap te gebruik en eers die kan en pyp af te vee voor jy in gooi

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:12 pm

skuim rubber sal die static probleem vererger. veral as jy die jerries in en uitskuif op die skuimrubber. Onthou die eksperiment met die ballon wat jy in een rigting vryf en hoe hy jou hare optel? Dis statiese elektrisiteit daai.

Hi-Hilux · Post by **Hi-Hilux** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:28 pm

Dan is die skuim rubber goed wat di 4x4 shops verkoop, wat jy aan die kante van die kanne plak sodat hulle mekaar deur skuur nie, ook gevaarlik? Wat sit ek dan tussen die yster en j-kan om te verhoed dat dit deur skuur? Marine ply hout?

Post by **Mud Dog** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:40 pm

The simplest solution is to make up a short lead (about 1.2 -1.5 m long) with a small crocodile clip on each end. There is no need or sense in grounding the jerry to earth (soil) but for simplicity stand it on the ground near the filler cap and connect the crocodile clip lead from the bakkie to the jerry (not on paint). Open the filler and the jerry after the lead is connected and fill / syphon whatever you want .... there is no possibility of a spark from static if you do this. Only disconnect your lead once you are finished and both filler and jerry are closed.

Post by **george** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:41 pm

Hi-Hilux wrote:Dan is die skuim rubber goed wat di 4x4 shops verkoop, wat jy aan die kante van die kanne plak sodat hulle mekaar deur skuur nie, ook gevaarlik? Wat sit ek dan tussen die yster en j-kan om te verhoed dat dit deur skuur? Marine ply hout?

Jy kan maar die skuim gebruik.Maak net seker hy is gedischarge voor jy hom oopmaak

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:43 pm

Nee daai is okay, ek het gedink jy meen gewone spons... onthou dis nie gevaarlik solank die kan toe is nie, al wat jy moet doen is om die kan op die grond neer te sit voor jy hom oopmaak, dan is jy safe..

En daar gee Oom Andy vir jou 'n baie lekker oplossing....

Post by **Mud Dog** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:48 pm

Hi-Hilux wrote:Dan is die skuim rubber goed wat di 4x4 shops verkoop, wat jy aan die kante van die kanne plak sodat hulle mekaar deur skuur nie, ook gevaarlik? Wat sit ek dan tussen die yster en j-kan om te verhoed dat dit deur skuur? Marine ply hout?

Use whatever foam you want but use the procedure as described above and you will have no hassles. If you do not have a lead, you can use your body as the 'lead' by grounding the jerry to the vehicle before opening any fuel. All that is required is to equalise any static between the two objects .... no more possibility of a spark. If the jerry has a bare metal spout, it will act as a grounding while you fill as it will be in contact with the tank.

En daar gee Oom Andy vir jou 'n baie lekker oplossing....

Dankie Oom Thys!

Hi-Hilux · Post by **Hi-Hilux** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:56 pm

ja ek praat van daai goed wat di kinders by die water slides mee af gaan vir meer spoed, ampet soos wetsuit rubber. Maar daai plan klink al beter, dankie aan al die ooms!

Ou vale1 · Post by **Ou vale1** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:29 pm

Mud Dog wrote:The simplest solution is to make up a short lead (about 1.2 -1.5 m long) with a small crocodile clip on each end. There is no need or sense in grounding the jerry to earth (soil) but for simplicity stand it on the ground near the filler cap and connect the crocodile clip lead from the bakkie to the jerry (not on paint). Open the filler and the jerry after the lead is connected and fill / syphon whatever you want .... there is no possibility of a spark from static if you do this. Only disconnect your lead once you are finished and both filler and jerry are closed.

I agree to disagree with your statement. Why do you get an electric shock from a vehicle when you are grounded and touch the bodywork? You are touching a fully loaded capasitor! On small amounts of fuel like jerries it might be a calculated possibility of ignition, but if you load 35000l of petrol you are looking at one serious explosion if the same little spark that hit your finger find it's way to those hydrocarbons! I'm not the brightest spark in chemistry but I've seen a few serious fires in petrochemical plants coused by static fires to know that natural earth is the only earth, hence it's name.

Post by **Mud Dog** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:16 pm

When you connect the lead to the vehicle you will probably already be discharging it ..... when you connect it to the jerry and the jerry is on the ground then there is continuity to earth .... further discharge if there is any. But in any case, once there is an electrical continuity (the lead in this instance) between the vehicle body and the jerry there is no longer a difference in static charges between them. If there is any discharge it will run through the lead (path of least resistance) rather than arc across air.
That being said, if there is still a charge present (both the jerry and the vehicle having the same charge), where is it going to go? If you are bare footed and make the lead connection, you are earthing both the vehicle and jerry .... no more charge, but if you are wearing insulative footwear, you too will be carrying the same charge ... still no risk of a spark, unless it's through your footwear. Highly unlikely, but would occur at the time of connection before any fuel cap has been opened. Safe as houses!

Maverick131 · Post by **Maverick131** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:55 am

Mud Dog wrote:The simplest solution is to make up a short lead (about 1.2 -1.5 m long) with a small crocodile clip on each end. There is no need or sense in grounding the jerry to earth (soil) but for simplicity stand it on the ground near the filler cap and connect the crocodile clip lead from the bakkie to the jerry (not on paint). Open the filler and the jerry after the lead is connected and fill / syphon whatever you want .... there is no possibility of a spark from static if you do this. Only disconnect your lead once you are finished and both filler and jerry are closed.

Andy,
Can you use jumper cables for this purpose as well - say both the red clips for example?

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