leaf and shackle issues...

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:42 pm

Hi all - I'm hoping the collective mind of many hilux owners can shed some light on my current situation. Here's the synopsis.

I've got an 89 ln106 (leaf sprung SFA) lux. I replaced the stock suspension with OME's dakar hd kit and have put about 10,000km of light driving on them.

Problem: The front leafs appear to have settled and now the shackles are digging into the frame...

I originally thought the shackles were installed incorrectly, but after taking them apart, I'm fairly sure they were together right? Aside from a premature sag in the leaf spring - what might have caused this situation - or were the shackles just put together wrong?

Please have a look at the images and comment on the leafs and shackles installed! Thank-you!!

On a side note, I'm currently rebuilding my entire sfa and would like to address this issue at the same time.

Post by **CasKru** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:26 pm

If I have to venture a guess is that your suspension (leaves) have moved on the axle saddles. It's as if the your van would be driving crab style with the front and rear tyres / tires not following in the same track. When last did you have the alignment checked?

Kaspaas · Post by **Kaspaas** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:55 pm

Hi there,

Although it is only a small correction, it can play a big part in the sagging of leaves.
Like Carkru says, the saddels on the axel need to be 100% straight. Otherwise you will just pull the leave pack straight again, and those OME look really saggy after just 10k km??

Check here:

http://www.hilux4x4.co.za/strengthen-hilux-sfa-saddles/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Mud Dog** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:57 pm

The shackles should not foul against the frame .... I'm wondering if you were supplied the correct shackles, those appear to be a fraction too short by about 15 / 20mm.

The spring packs are way too flat ..... two contributing factors that are obvious from your pics, are the inversely bent sections marked in the pic below.

: IMG_20140112_144102.jpg (52.33 KiB) Viewed 8493 times

The centre section is as a result of deformed pedestals / saddles (as mentioned by "Kaspaas"). Read up on the thread link he has provided on how to rectify this.

The other section marked is at the rear end (shackle end) of the pack where the three full length leaves have bent (at the end of the first shorter leaf). I cannot say with absolute definity why this has happened, but it's not normal ... I convinced that as the shackle fouls against the chassis rail on deflection of the spring, and cannot move any further, the leaves are deforming to absorb the last bit of travel.

The incorrect shackles and resulting deformity of the top 3 blades is an installation / supplier fault and I would take it back to them on that score and have them rectify it, i.e. replace the shackles with the correct ones and replace the top 3 blades (on both sides).

The centre bow in the pack is not really their fault, but it should be corrected. If you cannot do it yourself, ask them to rectify it at the same time.

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:47 am

Thank-you all for your input.

It has been sometime since an alignment has been performed. I will likely do this once all is assembled again, as I am currently rebuilding the sfa and re-gearing.

I hadn't considered deformed pedestals as being a part culprit. The lux only has ~ 214,xxxkm on it... Is this a common problem at this age/mileage?
Cheers! I will look into corrective measures - as in I'm assuming cut and re-weld...

mcw · Post by **mcw** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:32 am

Is this a common problem at this age/mileage?

This is a common problem on SFA Hilux ,read link to thread provided repair consists of hammering saddle flat with large hammer and then welding a plate on top of saddle to strengthen it ,my new spring pack was replaced without doing this repair and springs lasted 500km

Martin

zepplin · Post by **zepplin** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:42 am

From the pics it doesn't look as if the springs have moved laterally off the saddles. This is not a common issue as the U-bolts hold the springs in position but as noted above, the saddles themselves definitely need attention.

Those shackles are way too short as Andy said.
A couple of hours with the correct equipment and that should all be sorted.

Post by **LouisZ** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:19 am

Ok.

The blades is installed in the correct direction.

Now, the shackles look if they are either bend or there is no bushes in with a shoulder or the incorrect bush set, this will cause the blade to sit screw and press the shackle against the chassis. The Shackles can be installed from either side, no difference. ESPECIALLY THE TOP Chassis bushes looks if they seen better days, that is what cause the problem.

Unfortunatly all SFA's will suffer from the saddles that bend, if you work on the front suspension will be worth while to correct this before you go on. If you don't, your NEW blades will suffer the same fate as the older ones.Then like all above says the saddles have to be straightened. 2 ways of doing this but both will take that you hammer the centre part in a bit until there is no high areas. No.1 is to hammer the saddles, then enforce them with support pieces and the other is to CO weld a flat bar 6mm same length and width as the saddle into place,TAKE NOTE of the hole where the leafspring centre bolt have to go. Remember if you used the OME U-bolts is to torque them to the correct torque = 126N/M.

Fix both these you get a better shackle angle and you see it lifts the front!! :razz:

Cleaner · Post by **Cleaner** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:59 am

A bit off-topic, but also have a look at your wheel bearings. That is is a lot of what I assume is diff oil on the rim and tire there!

Post by **Mud Dog** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:20 am

Cleaner wrote:A bit off-topic, but also have a look at your wheel bearings. That is is a lot of what I assume is diff oil on the rim and tire there!

This is caused by a leaking inner half-shaft seal - not too difficult to replace. The wheel bearings are probably still OK, but, while you have it all open, might be better to replace as well.

Post by **LouisZ** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:35 pm

Here is 2 posts that can help:

viewtopic.php?f=95&t=7412&hilit=saddle+correction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=9011&hilit=saddle+correction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Better to get the axle out, works easier.

Hoppy · Post by **Hoppy** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:52 pm

Those are aftermarket shackles, they may be bent or just made incorrectly in the factory, the bend on the OE shackles is closer to the bottom bolt

Tarquin · Post by **Tarquin** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:55 am

I have the same issue on my lux, also fitted ome's (6 blades). yet i straitened and re inforced saddles as the topic describes. i did a axle shift of 35mm, could that cause it to w a bit in the middle? myne never curved up as they are supposed to from day one.
my shackles look the same as well

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:51 am

Tarquin wrote:I have the same issue on my lux, also fitted ome's (6 blades). yet i straitened and re inforced saddles as the topic describes. i did a axle shift of 35mm, could that cause it to w a bit in the middle? myne never curved up as they are supposed to from day one.
my shackles look the same as well

The hole you drilled for the axle shift, is it of adequate depth and diameter so that the locating pin goes all the way home?

If the pedestal is straight and the pin doesn't foul, the U-bolts cannot pull the pack into an inverted bow.

If the shackles touch, something's wrong ..... too short / bend too high up as Allan said or the bush in the chassis is kaput as Louis said.

Tarquin · Post by **Tarquin** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:57 am

Mud Dog wrote:
Tarquin wrote:I have the same issue on my lux, also fitted ome's (6 blades). yet i straitened and re inforced saddles as the topic describes. i did a axle shift of 35mm, could that cause it to w a bit in the middle? myne never curved up as they are supposed to from day one.
my shackles look the same as well
The hole you drilled for the axle shift, is it of adequate depth and diameter so that the locating pin goes all the way home? If the pedestal is straight and the pin doesn't foul, the U-bolts cannot pull the pack into an inverted bow.

If the shackles touch, something's wrong ..... too short / bend too high up as Allan said or the bush in the chassis is kaput as Louis said.

the shackles are the eom ones. as for the hole i drilled, it was a while back, but as far as i can remember it was deep enough. if it was then i the springs wouldn't sit flush with the diff?
and how would this stop the springs from pushing up the vehicle?
i'm tempted to put the diff back where it's originally meant to be and see what happens

Tarquin · Post by **Tarquin** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:21 am

just to get the sides right again, the spring with the + on it is for the passenger side? and the - is for the driver?
the driver side is almost perfectly level and the passenger one is a bit more curved upwards, will try get pics

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:56 am

and how would this stop the springs from pushing up the vehicle?

If the pin doesn't locate fully home it will have the same effect as a deformed pedestal and pull the springs into a negative bow. The axle move itself wouldn't have any impact on warping the springs, so leave them where they are, but did you shorten the torque rod (and drag-link) at the same time? If the torque rod is too long it will cause the springs to wrap a bit.

Maybe you just need to undo the passenger side and check that the pedestal is still straight.

Tarquin · Post by **Tarquin** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:07 am

thanks Andy
i have now removed the torque rod and will check the centre holes and make sure all the u-bolts are tight

as the my previous question, are my springs on the correct side of the vehicle?

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:25 am

Yes, the drivers side is a flatter arc than the passenger side because the pedestal on the drivers side sits higher as it's right up against the diff.

Tarquin · Post by **Tarquin** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:19 am

Thanks Andy

Have a look at the pic of my springs, the driver side seems to have a smooth curve to it,
but the passenger side only curves at the back. i removed it and checked, the saddle is level and pin is sitting correctly.
it looks to me like if a move my axle back to where it originally should be then it will sit better.
i did the axle move at a time when i was a bit over zealous and wanted 33's with a lexus V8

now i'm sticking to my 2.8D and 31's so i don't really need the axle move and am thinking if it won't just be better if its back where it should be

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:47 pm

OK, in that case then move it back, especially if you have not modified the drag-link and torque rod. That said, both packs look a bit flat in the centre to me ... maybe it's just the pic. If you took two pics, one of each pack looking down the length of the pack from the front, we could see better. I also want to ask, is the vehicle standing lop-sided? (You can stand it on a level surface and measure from the floor up to the fender on both sides.)

Tarquin · Post by **Tarquin** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:14 pm

Passenger

Driver

they have been like that since new :evil:
they are not even 6 months old and i haven't even done 2000km on them!!!

i think i must send these pics to the mega world where i baught them to see what they say, because surly they should have more of a bend

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:56 pm

The axle move on mine did not affect the height at all. Saddle corrections did. My bakkie sagging on driver's side still,and both the front packs have a slight "w" in them and they're also less than 15 000 km's old, but not as bad as the ones in the pic.

These OME's are soft, any worn part would affect them I think. The shackles & bushes look dodge to me as well. You might have to replace the passenger pack, looks like it got hurt somewhere along the line.

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:07 pm

Does not look right on the passenger side at all .....

they have been like that since new :evil:
they are not even 6 months old and i haven't even done 2000km on them!!!

i think i must send these pics to the mega world where i baught them to see what they say, because surly they should have more of a bend

I would take it back to the installer now while it's still new.

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:13 pm

Mud Dog wrote:
Cleaner wrote:A bit off-topic, but also have a look at your wheel bearings. That is is a lot of what I assume is diff oil on the rim and tire there!
This is caused by a leaking inner half-shaft seal - not too difficult to replace. The wheel bearings are probably still OK, but, while you have it all open, might be better to replace as well.

Yes! Ironically the leaking inner axle seals are what caused this whole thing to get a really good look. I new there were issues, but not to this extent.

Whole sfa and assembly is currently out of the truck and parts and cleaned and close to paint. Re-assembly starts when I get the parts!!

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:17 pm

zepplin wrote:From the pics it doesn't look as if the springs have moved laterally off the saddles. This is not a common issue as the U-bolts hold the springs in position but as noted above, the saddles themselves definitely need attention.

Those shackles are way too short as Andy said.
A couple of hours with the correct equipment and that should all be sorted.

I thought they looked short to! Any chance you know of an OME part # for the correct front shackles (2" lift leafs)?

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:26 pm

4x4megaworldpta wrote:Ok.

The blades is installed in the correct direction.

Now, the shackles look if they are either bend or there is no bushes in with a shoulder or the incorrect bush set, this will cause the blade to sit screw and press the shackle against the chassis. The Shackles can be installed from either side, no difference. ESPECIALLY THE TOP Chassis bushes looks if they seen better days, that is what cause the problem.

Unfortunatly all SFA's will suffer from the saddles that bend, if you work on the front suspension will be worth while to correct this before you go on. If you don't, your NEW blades will suffer the same fate as the older ones.Then like all above says the saddles have to be straightened. 2 ways of doing this but both will take that you hammer the centre part in a bit until there is no high areas. No.1 is to hammer the saddles, then enforce them with support pieces and the other is to CO weld a flat bar 6mm same length and width as the saddle into place,TAKE NOTE of the hole where the leafspring centre bolt have to go. Remember if you used the OME U-bolts is to torque them to the correct torque = 126N/M.

Fix both these you get a better shackle angle and you see it lifts the front!! :razz:

Thank-you -

Top chassis bushing - will this be very obvious upon removal that its bunk? Bottom (leaf) bushing appears fine from my knowledge...

Yes I took a good read of the provided links for solving the perch. I'm no welder so I will be taking the assembly to a nearby shop. I'm debating whether to add the plate or reinforce the sides - currently the lux is raked front to rear - which I understand is typical of OME and suspensions like this. Makes sense for the payload ratings etc.

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:35 pm

4x4megaworldpta wrote:Here is 2 posts that can help:

viewtopic.php?f=95&t=7412&hilit=saddle+correction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=9011&hilit=saddle+correction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Better to get the axle out, works easier.

Thanks!!! Funny I read the first link earlier - but read it only for the sfa rebuild - not the perch fix!!

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:47 pm

Kaspaas wrote:Hi there,

Although it is only a small correction, it can play a big part in the sagging of leaves.
Like Carkru says, the saddels on the axel need to be 100% straight. Otherwise you will just pull the leave pack straight again, and those OME look really saggy after just 10k km??

Check here:

http://www.hilux4x4.co.za/strengthen-hilux-sfa-saddles/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you! Yes way too saggy after 10k... I think I will opt to add strength plates to the side of the sides of the perch rather on top as I can eliminate having to worry as much about alignment of the leafs if done this way...

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:41 am

[edit] So put a straight edge to the perch's again... this time they look pretty good?..

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:46 am

Pulled the shackles apart to inspect bushings and determine once and for all if they could be re-oriented... answer appears to be yes. Image shows what I believe to be the correct orientation... on to the bushings!

The Legend · Post by **The Legend** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:30 am

Hi Scot

Have a look at this link to give you an idee about the correct length of the shackles

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=34339" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:27 am

Lollie wrote:Hi Scot

Have a look at this link to give you an idee about the correct length of the shackles

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=34339" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hey!

Those look significantly longer than mine... I'm searching for an image with measurements for the ome provided shackles...

Post by **LouisZ** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:03 am

Hi Scott,

Ok the shackles, I see they not exactly the same length. It look if they the greaseble sort. Now like in your photo match them up like follow:

Let say from left to right you number them: 1 2 3 4

Take no 1 and put with no 3, then match 2 and 4. Assemble them like this and look if the pins runs parallel to each other.

Reason for this it appear if the shackles looks if they not the same length.

Ok the bushing, check the shoulder thickness, they should be round about 3.6 to 4mm thick.

Then you get the greasable shackles of OME, it is OMEGS4 with OMEGP3, these are made neat and also identical to each other.

Tarquin, I see the saddles is strengthened but I think it is just welded, no effort was done to get the saddles straight, if it was properly there is no way the leafts will make the W.

If you install, look for a +. - , O.

The + shows it is over spec on the load carry capacity by 5 %
The O shows it is exact on the load Carry capacity
The - shows it is under spec on the load carry capacity by 5 %

Then also the part no CS***FA or CS***FB.

The FA is Driver side
The FB is Passanger side.

All above could make it tricky to install. Plain is usually to get the FA anf FB right. Match also + to O but if you have the + and - you might think of it to swop Driver to passenger blades.

You might get the blades better by ensuring to torque the U- Bolts to 126Nm if it is the OME U -Bolts. The std ones a bit less. REMEMBER TO RECHECK AFTER 500KM.

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:10 pm

Louis,

Have always been wondering...which blades are different between *FA & *FB...when I added a blade to each pack I added them 3d from top...both blades were exactly the same...

Tarquin · Post by **Tarquin** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:17 pm

4x4megaworldpta wrote:Hi Scott,

Ok the shackles, I see they not exactly the same length. It look if they the greaseble sort. Now like in your photo match them up like follow:

Let say from left to right you number them: 1 2 3 4

Take no 1 and put with no 3, then match 2 and 4. Assemble them like this and look if the pins runs parallel to each other.

Reason for this it appear if the shackles looks if they not the same length.

Ok the bushing, check the shoulder thickness, they should be round about 3.6 to 4mm thick.

Then you get the greasable shackles of OME, it is OMEGS4 with OMEGP3, these are made neat and also identical to each other.

Tarquin, I see the saddles is strengthened but I think it is just welded, no effort was done to get the saddles straight, if it was properly there is no way the leafts will make the W.

If you install, look for a +. - , O.

The + shows it is over spec on the load carry capacity by 5 %
The O shows it is exact on the load Carry capacity
The - shows it is under spec on the load carry capacity by 5 %

Then also the part no CS***FA or CS***FB.

The FA is Driver side
The FB is Passanger side.

All above could make it tricky to install. Plain is usually to get the FA anf FB right. Match also + to O but if you have the + and - you might think of it to swop Driver to passenger blades.

You might get the blades better by ensuring to torque the U- Bolts to 126Nm if it is the OME U -Bolts. The std ones a bit less. REMEMBER TO RECHECK AFTER 500KM.

THANK YOU Louis

finally i understand the + and - and which side goes where!!

So my springs are on the wrong side

will swop them in the week to come and report back

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:50 pm

Hey all! Been a while since my last post. Lots of work has been completed on the rebuild... alas its still not completed though - I'm very slow!!

Stuck on needing to replace a few front wheel studs - anyone got a part number? Thanks!

Some pics on the progress. Just finished up a re-gear so now I will be running 4:56s - I swapped to rear 3rd members - one from a 92 4Runner and one a 94 (NA factory gearset). Should help with turning my 31s and slug of an engine!

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:55 pm

Some pics of the rear third swap! Yes, I should have disconnected the brake lines....

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:00 pm

4x4megaworldpta wrote:Hi Scott,

Ok the shackles, I see they not exactly the same length. It look if they the greaseble sort. Now like in your photo match them up like follow:

Let say from left to right you number them: 1 2 3 4

Take no 1 and put with no 3, then match 2 and 4. Assemble them like this and look if the pins runs parallel to each other.

Reason for this it appear if the shackles looks if they not the same length.

Ok the bushing, check the shoulder thickness, they should be round about 3.6 to 4mm thick.

Then you get the greasable shackles of OME, it is OMEGS4 with OMEGP3, these are made neat and also identical to each other.

Tarquin, I see the saddles is strengthened but I think it is just welded, no effort was done to get the saddles straight, if it was properly there is no way the leafts will make the W.

If you install, look for a +. - , O.

The + shows it is over spec on the load carry capacity by 5 %
The O shows it is exact on the load Carry capacity
The - shows it is under spec on the load carry capacity by 5 %

Then also the part no CS***FA or CS***FB.

The FA is Driver side
The FB is Passanger side.

All above could make it tricky to install. Plain is usually to get the FA anf FB right. Match also + to O but if you have the + and - you might think of it to swop Driver to passenger blades.

You might get the blades better by ensuring to torque the U- Bolts to 126Nm if it is the OME U -Bolts. The std ones a bit less. REMEMBER TO RECHECK AFTER 500KM.

Ok - so I got the shackles sorted and re-installed, unfortunately with the original set of OME springs. I'm told I will see a warranty for the springs in about one months time.

Checked the bushings - they are shot as suspected. Pins have far too much play in the bushing and they are 'ovalish'!

Ended up getting some bar and fixing the spring saddles even though they appeared to be not too bad.. but at least its good to work for another long while now. I actually have two B sets of springs on the front. I have since re-installed these - but flipped sides to see if there is any difference. I'll get some images once the whole thing is back with wheels on. Thanks again!!

Post by **LouisZ** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:12 am

Nice Built!!

If you have both FB's check the rating, ie + or o or -.

Use the more positive value on the driver side.

Example:

FB 0 driver side.
FB - Passanger side.

The Legend · Post by **The Legend** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:40 pm

Well done Scot,it looks very nice

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:38 am

4x4megaworldpta wrote:Nice Built!!

If you have both FB's check the rating, ie + or o or -.

Use the more positive value on the driver side.

Example:

FB 0 driver side.
FB - Passanger side.

Hey Louis! I probably should have heeded your advice in an earlier post and looked at them more carefully. I ended up swapping the leafs to alternate sides for now - as I'm waiting for a warranty replacement set and must get my lux back on the road. I'm going to examine the new ones and go with the +/- for the swap!
Thanks!!

89ln106 · Post by **89ln106** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:39 am

Lollie wrote:Well done Scot,it looks very nice

Thanks Dawie! I hope it drives as well as it looks to!!!