Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

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Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

Time for the next episode of electrickery ….

Short recap of my electrical system in my Hilux camper:
2 x 80 W solar panels
Ctek 250 S dual charger (charging from the alternator and the solar panels)
105 A.h deep cycle battery
6.jpg
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The following is run from the battery:
National Luna 50 liter Weekender twin (dual compartment fridge and freezer)
Four different sets of LED lights
12V water pump
Compressor
Inverter to charge laptops and camera batteries

I have since added the following measuring equipment to be able to bust some myths :
Three off Volt and Amm meters to measure the following circuits –
- Solar panel
- What the Ctek delivers to the battery (either from the alternator or the solar)
- What power is being drawn from the battery by the fridge, lights etc …
DSCN1434 (Small).JPG
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So how to log the data from this most basic monitoring system ?

Set your GoPro to timelapse photography, or use an intervalometer on your DSLR …. hehehehehe :lmao: :tease:
DSCN1625.JPG
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Test 1 – WHAT is a “MPPT” regulator ?

A solar panel can deliver as much as 17 V – enough to damage a battery !

Thus a solar panel should be connected to a battery via a “regulator”. There are two basic types:
1) Shunt Regulator – this unit “cuts off” the extra volts and delivers a safe amount of Volts to the battery. In this process it “throws away” energy that could have been used to charge the battery.
2) Maximum Power Point Tracking (MPPT) Regulator – A solar panel harvests “power” from the sun. Mathematically this power is : Power = Volts x Amps. The MPPT regulator reduces the solar volts, AND increase the amps as it passes through the MPPT regulator. Thus providing the maximum amps to the battery.

This photo shows a MPPT regulator at work:
DSCN1501.JPG
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The solar panels are delivering the following power :
P = Vx I = 18,1 x 3,2 = 57,92 W

The MPPT regulator takes this power, then delivers a higher current by reducing the volts. The power supplied to the battery is :
P = V x I = 13,2 x 4,1 = 54,12 W

The process of increasing the current however does take some power, in this example it took 3,8 W. Thus the MPPT regulator was 93,4% effective in this case.

Looking at a larger sample of reading the MPPT regulator took an average of 6,8W, with an average efficiency of 89,1%.



Test 2 – Charging a deep cycle battery


There are various myths and facts around deep cycle batteries …..

This test aims to see what happens when you try to charge a deep cycle battery that has been discharged past 50% - testing what you would encounter in a camp when your fridge drew power from the battery until the safety cut out on the fridge shut it down.

I deliberately discharged the battery until it had a resting voltage of 11,5V. Then parked the Hilux in the sun for the solar system and the Ctek 250 S to charge the battery.

Do note that my solar panels are mounted horizontally and as such does not track the sun – this CAN be seen in the available power as the sun moves over.

Here are part of the data set I recorded for this test :
test 1.jpg
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What can I conclude from this data?
- On 4 October at 12:47, in Cape Town, the angle of the sun onto the horizontally mounted solar panels were such that the maximum power I could get from 2x80W solar panels was 106W, ie about 66% of the rated value.
- As the sun moves over, this potential power constantly varies.
- It was noted that the Ctek250S operates as a constant voltage source, keeping the voltage supplied to the battery constant, while the current could be seen to slowly change to a point before the voltage would change by 0,1V. At 12,9V the charge current steadily dropped, then the Ctek upped the charge voltage to 13V. I then ran out of daylight to see this pattern through, but day two completed this pattern.
- Even though the battery was at a LOW state of charge it accepted the maximum available charge current. (proving some of my prior forum statements wrong …)

The Hilux was moved into the garage. The battery was not charged by any other means, nor was any power drawn from it. The next morning I parked it outside again to monitor the remainder of the charge cycle.
test 2.jpg
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Observations :
- The charge volts started much higher than on day one.
- The same power-sun-angle pattern was observed, with the power peaking at mid day.
- From 12:30 it can be seen how the Ctek starts to limit the charging current as the battery reaches a high SOC (state of charge). The charging volts now stayed at 14,3V while the current was gradually reduced down to 1 A – while the high voltage on the solar panel confirms that more energy is available. The solar panel voltage steadily increased to 18,5V as the current delivered to the battery declined to 1A. Thus the Ctek actively protects the battery against over charging.
- Interesting to see how the charge voltage jumped from 13,9V to 14,3V. Clearly an interesting algorithm that controls the Ctek250S.
- These readings suggest that from such a low discharge to full my 105A.h deep cycle battery only absorbed 41,5A.h !

NOTE – these tests were done with ZERO load connected to the battery.

Conclusion – the Ctek 250 S delivered on its promise as a MPPT solar regulator.

The next series of tests will look at the charging characteristics when a variable load (fridge) is connected to the battery.

I will then also do tests to check the auto-switch-over between solar and alternator charging of this dual charging unit.

These are early days, and I will need to repeat these tests with other regulators and dual chargers before making any comparisons …. This will take months, possibly a year or two ….
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by Johan Kriel »

Interesting reading Chris.

And glad the ctek 250 is doing what is promised. ;-)
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by louis fourie »

Chris

Gaan jy die HCdP chargers ook toets?

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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

Dankie Johan

I want to also check the available solar power on 21 December when the sun is supposed to be directly above us - would be interesting to put a value to the sun-angle .... Also to see how close the panel comes to rated output at the optimal angle.



o-well, the equipment is in place - NOU kan ons speel ... :)
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

louis fourie wrote:Chris

Gaan jy die HCdP chargers ook toets?

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Louis dalk later .... :subscribed:


Juis nou weer oppad werk toe - projek deadline vroeg volgende week - so nog n Saterdag wat ek NIE die solar kan toets nie ...
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by Thunder02 »

Interesting read, thanks Chris :thumbup:
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

nog n naweek, nog n paar eksperimente ... :subscribed: :subscribed:



TEST 3 – WHAT does a Ctek 250 S do when both solar and alternator power is available ?

For this test the Hilux was parked in the garage, thus no solar available. The engine was started and the charge current was monitored, at 19,9A it correlated well with the Ctek literature.

After idling for a minute or two I moved the Hilux into the sun, but left the engine on. Thus the Ctek saw BOTH solar power and alternator power.

Do remember the Ctek literature says it will “select the best source available” …. So WHAT does this mean in real life ?

Looking at the meters the FIRST thing I noted was the fact that the solar was now supplying 6,5A …. THEN it struck me, the Ctek was still delivering 20,0A to the battery !
_MG_8826.JPG
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It took a moment for the reality to sink in –
- The Ctek 250 S uses the available power from the solar panels to charge the battery;
- THEN it uses power from the alternator to supply the maximum of 20A. (Solar + Alternator = max 20A)

This test lasted for 15 minutes, and yielded the following results:
test 3 (Small).jpg
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At 11:30 I started the engine and again alternator power was used to supplement the solar power to deliver 20A to the battery.

Should note that the Ctek waits about 30 seconds after starting the engine to start using alternator power (maybe this is what threw me out during the previous tests..)
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by Mars »

Dit is nou regtig interessant Chris en wondelike inligting wat jy vir ons beskikbaar stel hier. Ek is baie beindruk met jou ontwerp en hoe jy als aan mekaar gesit het. Ek gaan jou ontwerp nog na-aap.

Dankie vir jou moeite.
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by pietdevs »

Chris, waar het jy die volt/amp meters gekoop? Ek soek sulkes en kon nerens in die Kaap kry nie?
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

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Mars wrote:Dit is nou regtig interessant Chris en wondelike inligting wat jy vir ons beskikbaar stel hier. Ek is baie beindruk met jou ontwerp en hoe jy als aan mekaar gesit het. Ek gaan jou ontwerp nog na-aap.

Dankie vir jou moeite.
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=36698" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

die hele storie word hier verduidelik :)

LEKKER speel :cooldude:
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by george »

Baie nice toets. Wat maak die c-tek as die battery vol gelaai is.Wys hy 0 amps.

Ek het nou die dag gewonder wat gebeur met 'n battery wat permanent gekonekteer is in 'n bakkie via 'n solenoid soos die national luna en daar is geen "load" op hom nie. Hy sal mos oor laai of nie
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

George nou twee naweke na mekaar hom gekry dat die solar panel op 19V sit maar die Ctek set net 1A in die battery in ....

Nog nie gekyk tot hoe laag dit sak nie. :) nog elke keer uit daglig gehardloop .....

sal kyk en laat weet.
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

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george wrote:Baie nice toets. Wat maak die c-tek as die battery vol gelaai is.Wys hy 0 amps.

Ek het nou die dag gewonder wat gebeur met 'n battery wat permanent gekonekteer is in 'n bakkie via 'n solenoid soos die national luna en daar is geen "load" op hom nie. Hy sal mos oor laai of nie
jip - 0 A wanneer die battery VOL is.


gister die yskas afgesit, met die Ctek wat teen 0.9A laai - bykans vol na n paar uur se ry.

4 uur later wys die Ctek 0A, teen 13V - met die solar net oor die 20V

Vanoggend trikkel dit teen o,2A
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by george »

ChrisF wrote:
george wrote:Baie nice toets. Wat maak die c-tek as die battery vol gelaai is.Wys hy 0 amps.

Ek het nou die dag gewonder wat gebeur met 'n battery wat permanent gekonekteer is in 'n bakkie via 'n solenoid soos die national luna en daar is geen "load" op hom nie. Hy sal mos oor laai of nie
jip - 0 A wanneer die battery VOL is.


gister die yskas afgesit, met die Ctek wat teen 0.9A laai - bykans vol na n paar uur se ry.

4 uur later wys die Ctek 0A, teen 13V - met die solar net oor die 20V

Vanoggend trikkel dit teen o,2A
Goed om te weet.
Wat is jou opienie rakende 'n solenoid wat die heeltyd gekonekteer is en daar is geen "load" op die tweede battery.
Die 2de battery raak seker maar net deel van die kar se totale krag en kan seker nie oorlaai word nie.
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

Ek het nog my oorspronklike solenoid in ... :)

Handig om die 2de stelsel te isoleer van die voertuig se elektriese kring - NIE nodig met die moderne dc2dc chargers nie.


n solenoid sonder n dc2dc charger .....

1) 2de battery VOOR in die engine bay - DIT is hoe die stelsels vir jare gewerk het, met n HIGH cycle battery. Net nie genoeg juice om (volts te laag) om n deep cycle 100% te laai.

2) 2de battery AGTER in n bakkie - NOU soek jy vir moeilikheid. DIT is hoe my eerste stelsel was, en het my n battery gekos !! Volts is net te laag om die battery vol te laai ....


NIE nodig vir n duur Ctek nie - die 12A hcdp charger wat 4x4Direct verkoop is perfek vir 98% van verbruikers. DERDE die koste van n Ctek en dit doen die job.

AS jy ook wil solar gebruik .... okay dan moet jy kyk wat vir JOU gaan werk. EK soek iets wat outomaties skakel tussen alternator en solar ....
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by Mars »

ChrisF wrote:
Mars wrote:Dit is nou regtig interessant Chris en wondelike inligting wat jy vir ons beskikbaar stel hier. Ek is baie beindruk met jou ontwerp en hoe jy als aan mekaar gesit het. Ek gaan jou ontwerp nog na-aap.

Dankie vir jou moeite.
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die hele storie word hier verduidelik :)

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Dankie Chris. Ja ek het hom gevolg daar soos dit ontwikkel het. Net gou 'n vragie oor daardie 12 Amp HCDP charger en die 20A Ctek. Wat beteken die verskil nou werklik in alledaagse gebruik. Ek sien jy sê hy sal werk vir 98% van manne. Kan jy asb bietjie meer uitbrei? Dankie
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by subok »

Ek sal ook wil hoor asb. Die hcdp is n mmpc en nie mmpt nie.
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

Mars wrote:
ChrisF wrote:
Mars wrote:Dit is nou regtig interessant Chris en wondelike inligting wat jy vir ons beskikbaar stel hier. Ek is baie beindruk met jou ontwerp en hoe jy als aan mekaar gesit het. Ek gaan jou ontwerp nog na-aap.

Dankie vir jou moeite.
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=36698" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

die hele storie word hier verduidelik :)

LEKKER speel :cooldude:
Dankie Chris. Ja ek het hom gevolg daar soos dit ontwikkel het. Net gou 'n vragie oor daardie 12 Amp HCDP charger en die 20A Ctek. Wat beteken die verskil nou werklik in alledaagse gebruik. Ek sien jy sê hy sal werk vir 98% van manne. Kan jy asb bietjie meer uitbrei? Dankie
Met die 20A Ctek is die battery VOL gelaai 2 tot 3 uur na sonop !! Dis nou met 2x80W panele horisontaal gemonteer.

Dus is die 12A van die Hcdp heeltemaal voldoende - onthou 98% van die verbruikers sal nie meer as 2x80W solar panele gebruik nie. En dis MIN wat die twee panele meer as 12A gaan lewer.


PERSOONLIK hou ek nie van die 30A hcdp eenheid nie - ek glo steeds dat die laaistroom nie so hoog moet wees nie. MAAR, vir daai klein groupie wat inverters GEBRUIK, en BAIE krag NODIG het, sal enige prys betaal om die batterye GOU vol te kry ... so die klein mark sal die 30A roete gaan - maar dan ook heelwat meer as 160W solar gebruik ....



die een ding wat ek NIE weet nie - watter van die hcdp produkte outomaties skakel tussen alternator en solar ....



PS vir daai spesifieke geval waar dit bewolk, WARM en bedompig is sal mens daai 20A van die Ctek WAARDEER om die battery gou te laai terwyl jy n draai ry ... net so as jy by Addo gaan kamp - kort game drives, en vir die res staan jou rig onder die skadu van bome (okay - jy HET 220V in Addo).

So JA, daar gaan tye wees wat mens bietjie meer as 12A laai stroom soek van die alternator af.


As sulks is ek steeds n Ctek man - dis net so verdomp duur op die oomblik .....
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by Johan Kriel »

Mars wrote: Net gou 'n vragie oor daardie 12 Amp HCDP charger en die 20A Ctek. Wat beteken die verskil nou werklik in alledaagse gebruik. Ek sien jy sê hy sal werk vir 98% van manne. Kan jy asb bietjie meer uitbrei? Dankie
Die hcdp het n bypas funksie, so as die yskas loop (2.5amp) gaan nog steeds 12 amp na die battery. Met die ctek 250 gaan net die verskil na die battery, as die alternator loop. Maar 17.5amp is vir my nog steeds meer as 12 amp so jou laaityd is (17.5-12)/17.5 = 31% korter met die ctek, of wat praat ek.

Gister aand het die ctek my vir die eerste keer laat worry. Die voertuig staan met die ctek 7.0 gekoppel op die start battery gewoonlik. Gister aand toe ek die dorp inkom van die plaas af, waar die voertuig was , wys die battery monitors die ctek 250 laai nie. Daar was geen lading op die aux battery. Na n uur toe gaan kyk ek weer, toe wys die monitors dat die ctek laai. Toe nog geen laaier op die start battery nie. Koppel toe later die ctek 7.0 op en steeds weer niks op die aux battery, en so ook vanoggend. Maar vanaand is als reg.

Of die aux battery was vol en die ctek was in pulse fase, of die ctek het warm gekry (vir die eerste keer in seker 5 jaar daar voor).
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

Johan self nogal gewonder Saterdag middag toe daai Ctek ZERO amps wys .... teen 13V

Okay - ek het GEWEET die battery was al 5 ure vroeer amper vol gewees. Tog snaaks toe ek daai 13 V sien !! Selfs teen 0,2A is die volts 14,3V.

Wanneer die Ctek se daai battery is VOL, sit die deng AF ...
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Post by Mars »

Dankie vir die goeie inligting manne. Ek moet sê dat die prys verskil tussen die twee maak die keuse bietjie makliker!!!!
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by subok »

ChrisF, as die Skim doodgaan is jy my hero...
As jy met net twee meters moes klaarkom, watter twee sou jy kies? (Paneel, laaier, battery)
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

subok wrote:ChrisF, as die Skim doodgaan is jy my hero...
As jy met net twee meters moes klaarkom, watter twee sou jy kies? (Paneel, laaier, battery)

daai is nou n lekker vraag .... :cooldude: :slap: :siffler:


Tussen die Ctek en die battery - DIE meter gee vir my die stelsel volts, so nou WEET ek of die battery amper leeg is of hier teen 14,2V WEET ek hy is nou amper vol. EN dan kan ek sommer ook sien wat my solar\alternator in die battery insit (jy kan mos hoor as jou yskas loop, en sommer so rofweg raai wat gebruik word ...)


maar die SOLAR VOLTS is nogal die beste manier om te sien of die stelsel amper vol is - daai volts klim gou verby 17V sodra die Ctek die laai stroom laat sak (wanneer die battery amper vol is)
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

Mars wrote:Dankie vir die goeie inligting manne. Ek moet sê dat die prys verskil tussen die twee maak die keuse bietjie makliker!!!!
SarelF (op die ander forum) doen die week n reeks eksperimente :

DRIE solar panels, DRIE nuwe batterye, en DRIE verkillende laaiers:
Ctek
Hcdp
Steca


DIT gaan interessant raak ... :subscribed: :subscribed:


EN Sarel het die praktiese EN teoretiese ervaring en kennis om die toetse REG te doen ...
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subok
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by subok »

Subscribed! Weer.
Mars
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by Mars »

Sal dophou dankie.
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subok
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by subok »

Te veel gereen did naweek?
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Johan Kriel
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by Johan Kriel »

Ek gebruik die NL battery monitors (dual) en daar kry jy eintlik genoeg inligting oor die soc van die batterye. Maklik om op te koppel, as jy net wil sien of die battery gelaai word of nie, en jy kry n idee hoe lank dit vat om te laai van ontlaai oor nag en laai deur die dag met solar or as jy ry.

As dit nie genoeg is vir jou nie, dan het Chris die antwoord.

Sit die monitor net iewers waar hy nie met knie of iets gestamp kan word nie, die konneksie is maar pieperig. Ek dreig al 5 jaar om n dc klamp meter te koop om die stroom so nou en dan te meet, maar dit was eitlik nog nie nodig nie.
Johan Kriel

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pietdevs
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by pietdevs »

HcdP maak baie mooi en goeie battery monitors. Wys amps en volts. Wat veral lekker is is dat die amps positief en negatief wys, maw as jou battery meer stroom (amps) uitgee as inkry wys die ammeter 'n negatiewe lesing.
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ChrisF
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by ChrisF »

Johan Kriel wrote:Ek gebruik die NL battery monitors (dual) en daar kry jy eintlik genoeg inligting oor die soc van die batterye. Maklik om op te koppel, as jy net wil sien of die battery gelaai word of nie, en jy kry n idee hoe lank dit vat om te laai van ontlaai oor nag en laai deur die dag met solar or as jy ry.

As dit nie genoeg is vir jou nie, dan het Chris die antwoord.

Sit die monitor net iewers waar hy nie met knie of iets gestamp kan word nie, die konneksie is maar pieperig. Ek dreig al 5 jaar om n dc klamp meter te koop om die stroom so nou en dan te meet, maar dit was eitlik nog nie nodig nie.
Vir normale gebruik is die NL meter heel goed.


Ek het oor-boord gegaan juis omdat ek wou eksperimenteer. Maar vir gewone gebruik is dit beslis NIE nodig om so baie meters te he nie.
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Re: Monitoring\analysing a dual charging system ...

Post by legend35 »

ChrisF wrote:
Johan Kriel wrote:Ek gebruik die NL battery monitors (dual) en daar kry jy eintlik genoeg inligting oor die soc van die batterye. Maklik om op te koppel, as jy net wil sien of die battery gelaai word of nie, en jy kry n idee hoe lank dit vat om te laai van ontlaai oor nag en laai deur die dag met solar or as jy ry.

As dit nie genoeg is vir jou nie, dan het Chris die antwoord.

Sit die monitor net iewers waar hy nie met knie of iets gestamp kan word nie, die konneksie is maar pieperig. Ek dreig al 5 jaar om n dc klamp meter te koop om die stroom so nou en dan te meet, maar dit was eitlik nog nie nodig nie.
Vir normale gebruik is die NL meter heel goed.


Ek het oor-boord gegaan juis omdat ek wou eksperimenteer. Maar vir gewone gebruik is dit beslis NIE nodig om so baie meters te he nie.
Maar dit lyk impressive en is baie akuraat.
2004 Hilux 2700i 4x4 Legend 35
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Cowley branch and freeflow,long range tank,dual battery system,home made front and rear bumpers.
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