Looks as if my 4y's headgasket is on the way out

[Agteros]

Lately the radiator is losing water - pressure tests conducted show absolutely no leaks of the water lines. Water is not going to the oil. I had to put in about one "gieter" full of water in the radiator after driving about 900km's.

The engine is idling very rough and sometimes missing when cold - is it possible that the headgasket is busy going? I have done a test removing all the spark plugs when cold holding a piece of paper against the sparkplug holes and cranking the engine hoping to see some water drops against the paper - no water but the rear piston's spark plug show some oil and corrosion.

If it is a head gasket where do I go in Pretoria for this?

[Mud Dog]

The guys up your way will be able to suggest reliable service centres. When you start the motor from cold and remove the radiator cap before any pressure build-up occurs (DON'T remove the cap if the motor is hot), wait until the motor warms sufficiently for the thermostat to open. This will become evident when you see that the water in the radiator starts to flow across inside. At that point if you see any air bubbles rising out of the water, the HG is leaking. You can also take it for a carbon monoxide test. The rear spark plug being corroded does not sound good. I wish you all the best in getting to the bottom of the problem .... with a bit of luck it may not be that serious.

[Mr_B]

The 4th cylinder blowing on a 4Y is quite a common occurence, especially if the gasket is old and corroded(only evident on head removal)... the (block) gap between the water channel and cylinder is pretty narrow and wide... that section of gasket tends to give way when it gets old and weak! If it turns out to be the HG... replace it with the Toyota import gasket, costs around R 600... it has metal inserts around the water and oil channel holes... and will last longer than any pirate part!

mr b :)

[Mud Dog]

For that price I'd rather have a copper gasket made .... will outlast the motor.

[Agteros]

Thanks Andy and Bretton for your advise.
Andy, are the bubbles in the radiator water a fail safe way of determining whether the head gasget is blown? In other words can the HG be blown without it showing up the bubbles in the water?

[Agteros]

Hi Guys

I had Agteros idling now for more than an hour with the radiator cap off - there are absolutely no bubbles coming from the radiator - is this now an indication that the HG is OK??

But where is the water going then??

[Mud Dog]

It's a very good indicator but not entirely fail-safe. As you asked where is the water going then .... if it's not bubbling, and no water in the oil, another possibility is that it's pushing past the radiator cap into the reservoir bottle and overflowing through the bottle's o/flow pipe. Replace the radiator cap and see if that does'nt solve the problem. Hopefully it does cos alternately the water is going through the motor and out the exhaust as steam .... you don't see it. That could still be HG or cracked head, but do the radiator cap first.

[Dadz Toy BFI]

Might be worth lifting off the rocker cover when the engine is still warm (2 minute job):

look for condensation forming on the underside of the cover. :shifty:

see peekcha

[Agteros]

Hi Andy

OK, already replaced radiator cap with a new one - so I guess then its going out the exhaust unnoticed and therefore HG or cracked head?

Anyone knows of a reputable mech in Pretoria to do this job?

[Agteros]

Might be worth lifting off the rocker cover when the engine is still warm (2 minute job):

look for condensation forming on the underside of the cover. :shifty:

see peekcha

Hi Rich
The photo is not good since I don't want to loosen the accelerator cable to get the rocker cover off completely but I think you will be able to recognise the mayonnaise in the photograph? Is this cracked head or HG??

[Dadz Toy BFI]

Might be worth lifting off the rocker cover when the engine is still warm (2 minute job):

look for condensation forming on the underside of the cover. :shifty:

see peekcha

Hi Rich
The photo is not good since I don't want to loosen the accelerator cable to get the rocker cover off completely but I think you will be able to recognise the mayonnaise in the photograph? Is this cracked head or HG??

Can't see your photo :?

[Agteros]

Might be worth lifting off the rocker cover when the engine is still warm (2 minute job):

look for condensation forming on the underside of the cover. :shifty:

see peekcha

Hi Rich
The photo is not good since I don't want to loosen the accelerator cable to get the rocker cover off completely but I think you will be able to recognise the mayonnaise in the photograph? Is this cracked head or HG??

Can't see your photo :?

I've posted again - hope you can see now?

[Dadz Toy BFI]

Mayonaise !!!!

Your HG has gone. :!: :!:

When you lift off the head just give it a good look over, chance of your head having cracked is very very slim. :Geek:

I wrote an Article on here in Oct on changing the Head Gasket, it is not a difficult procedure if you want to have a go at fixing it yourself. Otherwise find a good mechanic and supply him with a standard Toyota Genuine Head Gasket which you can buy from the Stealers for +/- R400

Breast of luck

R

[Agteros]

Thanks guys for all your help - this is a great forum

[Dadz Toy BFI]

this is a great forum

The Best 4x4umxFar

[Mud Dog]

Ahh, mayo !! Hugo, if you would have noticed that before, you could have saved me a lot of typing! Ja mate .... H/G!!

[Paul Grobler]

Hugo ek sit met dieselfde probleem my 4y se hitte meter het begin om op te skiet en dan dadelik af te gaan ek dink dit is die termostaat wat vas gesteek het maar die skade is gedoen ek gaan maandag my silinder kop trek om te kyk wat aangaan dink ek moet sommer die hele enjin doen ou Betroubaar het nou al 295000 km op en dit is tyd vir bietjie liefde

[Mud Dog]

Hugo ek sit met dieselfde probleem my 4y se hitte meter het begin om op te skiet en dan dadelik af te gaan ek dink dit is die termostaat wat vas gesteek het maar die skade is gedoen ek gaan maandag my silinder kop trek om te kyk wat aangaan dink ek moet sommer die hele enjin doen ou Betroubaar het nou al 295000 km op en dit is tyd vir bietjie liefde

WAT!! :wth: ... Skaam jou! ..............



295000 km !! .............


en nou eers kry die arme ding ook net 'n bietjie liefde!!

................


Hoop dat die skade nie erg is nie .... voerspoed!

[Paul Grobler]

Het nou vir ou Betroubaar in die stoor getrek na n harde jaar op die plaas verdien sy dit

[Agteros]

Ahh, mayo !! Hugo, if you would have noticed that before, you could have saved me a lot of typing! Ja mate .... H/G!!

Hey Andy - you should have told me about looking underneath the rocker man - these HG's seems to have a temperament of their own. I've booked in AgterOs tonight with Wouter Visser in Monumentpark - will keep you posted with regards to progress (and costs).

[Agteros]

Hugo ek sit met dieselfde probleem my 4y se hitte meter het begin om op te skiet en dan dadelik af te gaan ek dink dit is die termostaat wat vas gesteek het maar die skade is gedoen ek gaan maandag my silinder kop trek om te kyk wat aangaan dink ek moet sommer die hele enjin doen ou Betroubaar het nou al 295000 km op en dit is tyd vir bietjie liefde

Paul, laat weet vir ons wat het jy gevind nadat jy oopgemaak het - ek is nuuskierig! Gaan jy die "joppie" self doen?

[Mr_B]

Hugo, sad to see it's the HG, but glad to see you found the issue... that milkshake can usually be found under the oil filler cap as well... saves you having to take the rocker cover off... it's possible that the coolant was only seeping when the engine is under load, therefore the bubbles test didn't show anything... it's important to diagnose why the HG blew when redoing the head again... like sticky thermostat, iffi water pump, blocked radiator, warped cylinder head, HG age/fatigue etc. and correct it... before putting the HG in... else the HG will probably blow soon again! Also ask your mech to evaluate the condition of the valves/seats/springs... if needed get the head recon'd while it's off... it's not that expensive and makes a remarkable difference to the engines performance!

When doing the HG it is a must to have the radiator cleaned and thermostat replaced!

mr b

[Agteros]

Hugo, sad to see it's the HG, but glad to see you found the issue... that milkshake can usually be found under the oil filler cap as well... saves you having to take the rocker cover off... it's possible that the coolant was only seeping when the engine is under load, therefore the bubbles test didn't show anything... it's important to diagnose why the HG blew when redoing the head again... like sticky thermostat, iffi water pump, blocked radiator, warped cylinder head, HG age/fatigue etc. and correct it... before putting the HG in... else the HG will probably blow soon again! Also ask your mech to evaluate the condition of the valves/seats/springs... if needed get the head recon'd while it's off... it's not that expensive and makes a remarkable difference to the engines performance!

When doing the HG it is a must to have the radiator cleaned and thermostat replaced!

mr b

Hi Bretton - just spoke to Wouter who pulled the head this morning - he says he can not see anything wrong with the HG - the engineering firm will now pressure test the head to see if it is cracked - does not look good hey

[Mr_B]

It is possible for the block to crack! So see what the eng firm says... else you may have to investigate further...

I've never heard of a 4Y cracking the block though!

mr b

[Agteros]

OK, so more mystery - the engineering guys could find no crack in the head - they skimmed. Where does the water go through? I don't know - visual inspection of the HG showed no damage although they reckon may be under pressure there may be a leak in the HG.

Anyway I have ordered the Chevy hydraulic valve lifters from MasterParts in Slaapstad as recommended by Mr. B in an earlier thread.

Wouter will put back everything next week together with a new HG. Will evaluate the situation further then

[Mud Dog]

Hmm .... that is puzzling ..... and no signs of water ever in the cab .... I'm thinking heater radiator and hoses? There's also that metal tube which carries water and runs along the side of the block below the plugs and behind the head.

[Agteros]

Hmm .... that is puzzling ..... and no signs of water ever in the cab .... I'm thinking heater radiator and hoses? There's also that metal tube which carries water and runs along the side of the block below the plugs and behind the head.

Yes puzzling indeed since the cab is dry with no "fog" forming on the inside of the front window which is typical of a leaking heater - and then there is the mayonnaise inside of the rocker cover

I will have that metal tube checked - I think the water is going out the exhaust but with no visible damage to the HG I can not explain the amount of water

[Mud Dog]

Did you have the head X-Ray'ed for cracks?

[Agteros]

Did you have the head X-Ray'ed for cracks?

I am not sure what tests they performed but I'll find out exactly what they did. Beforehand Wouter (the mech) told me the eng firm will do a pressure test :| Do you know whether this would be sufficient

[Mud Dog]

Usually it is, but sometimes hairline cracks only open when the head is hot. X-ray would reveal these cracks, but it's very rarely the case that they X-Ray these days.

[Agteros]

OK - so I ordered the Chevy lifters from Masterparts in Slaapstad as recommended by Mr B :) Thanks to Harold at Masterparts for their good service
Took them to Wouter (mecH) this morning. He says that they look just like the Toyota's but at 1/8 the price - yes you read correctly - 8 Toyota lifters = 3200rand and 8 Chevy lifters = 450rand. He will "mike" them before installing - keep thumbs for me that they fit 100%.

Hold further thumbs that the vanishing water miracle will be solved - I should know soon! :problem:

[Mud Dog]

Holding thumbs ...

[Dadz Toy BFI]

Crossing fingers too ...

[Mud Dog]

[Mr_B]

HEY WAIT... I'M OFF TOPIC...

[Agteros]

Agteros is in running condition again - I will get him tonight:

Work conducted: fitment of new HG, skimmed head, new valve lifters (thanks Bretton for your advise - the Chevy lifters according to Wouter work like a charm) - all work conducted for R 2840 + cost of lifters = R 540 postage included) . I am happy as McCarthy Lynnwood quoted me between R7000 and R8000 and not including new valvew lifters.

[Mud Dog]

Now we just hope that there are no water leak problems!

[Mr_B]

That's pretty reasonable for doing the head on a 4Y! Glad to hear the chevy lifters are working great, they are a fraction of the cost of the original Toy ones, same quality, and so much better quality than those rubbish pirate ones(which incidentally cost the same amount)...

Let us know how she runs!

mr b

[Evert Deyzel]

Is there a difference in performance between the OEM Toyota lifters and the Chev ones?

Evert

[Mr_B]

Well thats difficult to say... my toy original lifters were pretty worn... 265,000 on the clock... at higher RPM the engine was pretty rough... 3800-5000rpm... 5000 rpm was about it's useful limit... think old lifters probably couldn't control the valve bounce lekker... with the chev high RPM lifters the engine now revs smoothly right up to 6500rpm and are 100% quiet compared to the old ones... the engines low end torque is also discernably better... a new Toyota lifter may well give the same performance results, but the cost is the issue, about R 380 each x 8 = R3040... compared to the chev lifters at R400 or so for all 8... that's a huge difference!

mr b

[Agteros]

I collected Agteros last night - it runs like a Rolex watch now.

I have cold started her (him, it) this morning - gone are the klak-klak-klak

Had a look at the old HG - there was definitely some rust on the gasket at the back of the no. 4 cylinder where it is at its thinnest - hopefully the problem of the disappearing water is sorted - I will know within a 1000km :roll:

[Mud Dog]

Dont forget to re-torque the head after that 1000km ..... still holding thumbs!

[Agteros]

Thanks Andy - I actually had a word last night with Wouter about the re-torque of the head. He said he warmed-up the motor completely and after it cooled down he re-torqued the head. Of course he said if it will give me peace-of-mind he will gladly re-torque it after 1000km - you think that is absolutely necessary?

[Mud Dog]

I would do it .... it does settle in over a period.

[Agteros]

I would do it .... it does settle in over a period.

Andy, at the time I have not had the head re-torqued again. Now about 8000kms later I am losing water again. I think the head gasket is gone again but at the same time it developed an oil leak as well. Whole bottom end is wet. Will have it checked next week.

[Mud Dog]

Not good to hear, Hugo. I would have a CO test done on the coolant to verify that it is or isn't the head gasket (there are numerous other possible causes for water loss). Where is the oil coming from?

[Agteros]

Not good to hear, Hugo. I would have a CO test done on the coolant to verify that it is or isn't the head gasket (there are numerous other possible causes for water loss). Where is the oil coming from?

I had a look. Looks it wettish in the starter motor area - at the back. Not really leaking heavily though - only found like a drop on the garage floor.

[The Legend]

Hugo gee my n lui op my sel 0828746327. Ek wil jou verwys na n man in Pretoria wat die 4y soos die palm van sy hand ken en jou probleem gou gou sal uitsorttteer.

[Agteros]

Hugo gee my n lui op my sel 0828746327. Ek wil jou verwys na n man in Pretoria wat die 4y soos die palm van sy hand ken en jou probleem gou gou sal uitsorttteer.

Dankie Dawie - ek bel jou.

[Thabogrobler]

8000km in 10 jaar???

Dis 'n skande!!!

[Agteros]

8000km in 10 jaar???

Dis 'n skande!!!

Jip, ek erken, dis 'n groot skande.

[Agteros]

Hugo gee my n lui op my sel 0828746327. Ek wil jou verwys na n man in Pretoria wat die 4y soos die palm van sy hand ken en jou probleem gou gou sal uitsorttteer.

Dankie Dawie, Het met die man gesels. Hy het belowe hy kom terug na my maar nog niks gehoor.

Ek gaan vanoggend die enjin steam clean. Ek het 'n idee daars olie gemors tydens die laaste diens wat nie skoongemaak is nie. Dit lyk ook of die plastiekwaterbottel op sy naat effens "kraak" maar ek kan nie seker se nie. Ek het 'n ent met die bakkie gery en hy het nie ooglopend water verloor nie. Gaan maar eers die saak dophou.

[Agteros]

reservoir.jpg

(20.25 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Hugo gee my n lui op my sel 0828746327. Ek wil jou verwys na n man in Pretoria wat die 4y soos die palm van sy hand ken en jou probleem gou gou sal uitsorttteer.

Dankie Dawie, Het met die man gesels. Hy het belowe hy kom terug na my maar nog niks gehoor.

Ek gaan vanoggend die enjin steam clean. Ek het 'n idee daars olie gemors tydens die laaste diens wat nie skoongemaak is nie. Dit lyk ook of die plastiekwaterbottel op sy naat effens "kraak" maar ek kan nie seker se nie. Ek het 'n ent met die bakkie gery en hy het nie ooglopend water verloor nie. Gaan maar eers die saak dophou.

Foto aangeheg.

[The Legend]

Hugo
Gee die man weer n lui.Ek weet hy is maar besig maar wees net geduldig.Het het al baie aan my SFA gewerk en hy weeet wat hy doen.Jy sal nie die werk beter en goedkoper gedoen kry as by hom nie.

[gasoline]

ANY OF YOUR WATER PIPES COULD HAVE A SMALL LEAK...

LIKE ....HEATER VALVE ....WATERPUMP ...HEATER RADIATOR ect..these drip and water evaporates on hot motor......on a very quiet day run motor till hot...SWITCH OFF AND listen...for DRIP DRIP or pssst pssst!

feel each pipe for wetness...don't burn yourself..


good luck

[Agteros]

Thanks for all the advice. I think all was false alarms. No water lost in the past weeks. I think the 500ml water I had to top was due to the overflow bottle that I still suspect is evaporating water at a very slow rate from a small split visible on the photo in my post above. Will replace the bottle to confirm. No oil leaks either. Think the drop of oil lost was due to spillage at the last service. I am keeping a close eye.

[Mud Dog]

Here's hoping for the best.

[Agteros]

Here's hoping for the best.

Unfortunately noted a small puddle of oil under the engine. Looks like a leak from the crank seal. Made an appointment with Chris Cloete for next Monday to have it fixed. Most probably will have to get a new clutch and also a flywheel skim. Dit gaan 'n paar rande kos.

[Tim86]

Crank seal Toyota OE approx R550.00 Next step down Victoreinz approx R125.00
Skim approx R200/300.00?
Pilot bearing 60 bucks.
Very impressed with my PHC Valeo clutch - super smooth, light on the pedal and only cost R1750.00 from Alert Engine Spares (I have a 22R 2.4)
Same story with my mate's Valeo fitted to his 4Y.
The above is not a huuuge financial beating.
Top three aftermarket clutch brands appear to be LUK, Sachs and Valeo with a lot of banter around the first two and the quiet underdog doing the job. I am biased of course:)

Do the work yourself.

[Thabogrobler]

Here's hoping for the best.

Unfortunately noted a small puddle of oil under the engine. Looks like a leak from the crank seal. Made an appointment with Chris Cloete for next Monday to have it fixed. Most probably will have to get a new clutch and also a flywheel skim. Dit gaan 'n paar rande kos.

Kyk, Oom Chris mag dalk bietjie duurder wees as die gemiddelde werkswinkel maar daai omie ken sy storie!

En van die ou klasieke Benz'e wat soms daar staan...ai, 'n man kan net droom!